Weasel Nerf'd

[Kolar]

Weasels are not an effective means of controlling levi terriers as they're in motion most of the time, not defending a base or focusing on multiple targets (and most do check with X-radar) as a Base Terrier would and Weasels still can sneak up on spawning levis. Maybe.. logically... not having Warbirds killed every 5 seconds without some kind of personal defense.. at least not as much (actually caring about basing) would help them track and hunt down LTs.

Spawning will always be a problem, we can't force people to base or do what we want so spawning is a moot topic. We can encourage basing as it is the primary focus of the publics by insurting settings, rules ect.. to make it better and more fun. Weasel can fit into basing but you have to take a serious look at balancing it within that type of game play, not just listing off ships that have X-radar... To me, the ship, its settings can goto hell right now because if the 'weasel lovers' (what am I supposed to call you guys anyways?) are not willing to bring it into basing then it has no place affecting the public arenas.


Edit: Before you want to rant on again-

Answer this:

1:how did Weasels keep the levi terrier population down or in check?
2:What do Team killing javs have to do with the Weasels? if there is no connection why mention it here?

[Subjugation]

how does it assist lt's from runnign wild? and besides, they already corrected the lt issue with pure pubs.

I don't understand why you want the weasels to have such a big advantage.

[Adman]

pub is entirely fucked. basers on play in pure pubs, the rest are filled with wb spawning, and lts.

This segregation is fucking bs, put it all back into the melting pot and start this shit over again. because it's fucked up...

Go back to the original settings and the castle VI map

maybe not that map but the one without anti lev blocks and original levi weasel settings, not the small pos we have now... Maybe instead of whining about leagues we should get pub working properly again.

And fuck pure pub you whiny bitches about lts. chase them and hunt them, it's part of the game, if you don't like go to dsb or Eg.

Peace

[Adman]

rodge rabbit gtfo off of leagues and fix the pub

PUBS ARE STAGNANT.

[Subjugation]

If it's a problem that only affects the lowest common denominators of the zone then I don't see it as a problem at all.

pub is around for reasons other than basing. i could be wrong, cuz i don't intend to speak for the designers, but if you want strictly leet basing, there's already an arena for that. there's also an arena for wb's who are hardcore snipers. pub is like...a recreational league. people who aren't super serious and just want to have fun improving their wb elim skills without having to wait for an elim to start shouldn't have to worry about the bottom feeder x's who just trying and piss people off.

i mean, you make my point right there....if it's only affecting the lowest common denominator, it's no problem. so it should be no problem giving the x more balance so the newby lamers can't abuse it.

[Theif of Time]

The problem when it comes to publics was not the spawn but how it could take down terriers easily and effectively make publics unstable.

I am one of the weasels who does that- sneaks into base and essentially sows dissension. I occasionally am able to get a terrier unawares, half the time I get killed by a jav bomb (weasels are so weak a jav bomb even near them kills), half of the time which is a tk (But I know I'm going to get tked, its usually hitting an enemy in base anyway), the rest of the time I fire off a shot, kill a spider or wb, and everyone in base comes after me. What this does is lures them away from defending the entrance ergo allowing my team to get in.
I don't see how taking out the base terrier destabilises the pub. It adds to the pressure, sure, but it also gives the other team a way to get into base and take the fight into flagroom. It stops the campers camping, cos they've got to move about.

[PH]

The basers (read: the players that matter in the pure pubs), or at least the ones I've talked to, don't have a problem with the Weasels. The thing they, and I, have a problem with is the inexperienced Javelins that don't know how to calculate bomb bounces or trajectories. Taking the Weasel away has not slowed them down. They still try to fire blindly into base without a single blue dot around. They still miss the holes with 9 out of 10 shots. They still rack up TK's and litter the screen with apologetic yellow text. When "sry" is the most frequently used word in team chat, something's fucked. This was approached from the wrong angle. Period. Give us back the big Weasel so we can have some form of defense. With these settings most players will get one or two shots in before they die. And this is supposed to be fair and balanced? What's next? Oh, I know, let's make bricks and Thor's hammers greenable and turn this into Extreme Games II!

[CloudHelmut]

I really don't understand Pure Hatred, why you complain about javs but think everyone should have sucked it up about the weasel. Maybe there should be some changes to the jav? Or are you willing to live with it because it's in some Trench Wars Bible?

So are you complaining that the weasels were changed or that noone made YOUR suggested changes? I would agree that TK'ing javs are a bit of a problem. I've watched one moron sitting in the FR trying to make a shot- hits it maybe 3/10 and racks up at least 5 TKs. The obvious thing I suppose would be to weaken the area effect damage. I guess it would be sacrilege to take out the bounce - maybe in the pubs we could make the javs green up to get the bounce bomb? That way newbs may never even find out about it.



Anyhoo, if we are all throwing out suggestions here's mine:

Get rid of pub settings- leave levs in. To calm dickhead solo-lt's/javs, take out private channels and kick anyone who gets too many TKs/5 minutes. I'm not sure how we would insulate sharks from this rule but honestly some sharks really are dumb about mine placement too.

To keep the pubs "useful" registered squad leaders/assistants could perhaps still be allowed to create private teams for practice and recruiting.



PS-I've always found a WB was best for LT hunting. Shift in and snap the shot. Experience LTs drivers check their x-radar alot and a single red hit means the weasel has to either run away or uncloak into a real dogfight.

editted to add a pompous retort:

With these settings most players will get one or two shots in before they die.

That's because most players suck. I never cloak when I weasel- I mainly weasel only to hunt cloakers. Trust me I get plenty more than 2 shots off. B)

[Kolar]

I am one of the weasels who does that- sneaks into base and essentially sows dissension. I occasionally am able to get a terrier unawares, half the time I get killed by a jav bomb (weasels are so weak a jav bomb even near them kills), half of the time which is a tk (But I know I'm going to get tked, its usually hitting an enemy in base anyway), the rest of the time I fire off a shot, kill a spider or wb, and everyone in base comes after me. What this does is lures them away from defending the entrance ergo allowing my team to get in.
I don't see how taking out the base terrier destabilises the pub. It adds to the pressure, sure, but it also gives the other team a way to get into base and take the fight into flagroom. It stops the campers camping, cos they've got to move about.

The weasel was making the public unstable. If we were playing a game having fun and I picked up a brick and hit you with it, would you continue playing or attack me? It's simple ToT: You wouldn't care to continue playing if your chances were deminished by an overpowering ability or if you were pissed off. Shifting the balance of control is fine but to do that you need an equal playing feild since this game is based on player skill and ability. Pubbing is for basing, the rules, settings and everything staff puts into it is for that reason.



Having an unlimited cloak and stealth ability is not something that greatly effects any persons ability to play and get a decent amount of kills as a Weasel (I know that you and the forum goers/weasel users go without the cloak most of the time). At any given time a WB, spider, lanc can get 1-3 kills per death and if you don't see that as normal then maybe you should try something else for a bit. I think this update was done because outside of the pure pubs TW is dying. Without some means of defense smaller groups could not defend against this ship. If a small group of people, few wbs..spiders those kinds of ships can't control the flag and are only getting cloaked to death then they will not be sticking around to setup a terrier ect.. In these arenas you end up with nothing but spawning, wbduels around the safes and massive amounts of LTs. All of this negitive non basing crap stiffles real pubbing, we're asking you to deal with some variables and fair restrictions when using this ship so that the enjoyment of the entire arena, and not only your own is kept.

Edit: I'm pretty much going to respond to all the poor ideas about how the publics should be running, what they're there for and how the weasel effects the publics... SO why not throw some alternatives down and give up on this crap. In the end your opinion really doesn't matter, upper staff is going to keep it this way or change it further out of your favor Pure, reguardless of all the crying to revert back so why not at least do something productive, maybe they will notice your post.

[Saturn V]

pub is around for reasons other than basing ... but if you want strictly leet basing, there's already an arena for that.

True, but it seems the intent of purepub is for basing. Now, being someone who doesn't play a whole lot (like myself), the chance of getting to play in ?go base is very, very slim. And I'm not going to sit in ?go base all day hoping to get picked just so I can play once for 10 to 20 minutes.

[Troll King]

pub is around for reasons other than basing. i could be wrong, cuz i don't intend to speak for the designers, but if you want strictly leet basing, there's already an arena for that. there's also an arena for wb's who are hardcore snipers. pub is like...a recreational league. people who aren't super serious and just want to have fun improving their wb elim skills without having to wait for an elim to start shouldn't have to worry about the bottom feeder x's who just trying and piss people off.

i mean, you make my point right there....if it's only affecting the lowest common denominator, it's no problem. so it should be no problem giving the x more balance so the newby lamers can't abuse it.

Pub may be around for more than basing, but the primary focus should still be basing because that's what the zone is designed around. It's in the original settings, it's in the zone description, it's in the map design. Any changes that are made in pubs should thus keep basing in mind first, and any other play styles should come secondary. Basing is the primary aspect of this zone. Anyone denying that is ignoring the evidence.

The excuse that cloakers negatively affect spawners and warbirds can also be used to say that spawner warbirds negatively affect basing. I am more likely to get spawnkilled by a warbird than I spawned by a cloaker. People thought that the cloakers posed a big problem? For the very same reasons, I can say that warbirds pose an even bigger one.

If you're going to say weasels should be changed so that they don't bother those warbirds because pub is recreational, then I can also use the same argument to say that weasels don't need changing in the first place, "because it's recreational." Warbirds don't like the cloakers? It doesn't matter "because it's recreational". The same arguments can be used repeatedly, it just depends on where you want to draw the line. And if the line has to be drawn anywhere, it has to be drawn with basing first and foremost.

Trench Wars has always catered to the lowest common denominator, and that's why it's the largest zone in SS. And I'm not saying that's a good thing. While many might initially say that's a good sign, if you look deeper, you'll see that it's also the source of the biggest problems in this zone. Too many newbies? New talent isn't developing enough? People have too much attitude? All of this zones flaws exist because the zone allows them to exist.

[PH]

I really don't understand Pure Hatred, why you complain about javs but think everyone should have sucked it up about the weasel. Maybe there should be some changes to the jav? Or are you willing to live with it because it's in some Trench Wars Bible?

As you stated, the average pub Javelin is not experienced enough to make his shots go where he wants them to go on a regular basis. Should he be punished because of that? I don't think so. Dealing with Weasels is a learning experience for a Javelin, and with time he will learn when to use bullets instead of bombs, and how to use both more effectively. This is, of course, assuming his teammates don't scream "fuk u newbie" for every little mistake. This is liable to piss him off and turn him into one of the problematic Javelins that I always seem to get stuck with. Pub players don't learn anything except "ez", "sry" and "noob" with these settings, and the Javelin is not to blame, but its use does need to be limited if players get out of control with it.

So are you complaining that the weasels were changed or that noone made YOUR suggested changes? I would agree that TK'ing javs are a bit of a problem. I've watched one moron sitting in the FR trying to make a shot- hits it maybe 3/10 and racks up at least 5 TKs. The obvious thing I suppose would be to weaken the area effect damage. I guess it would be sacrilege to take out the bounce - maybe in the pubs we could make the javs green up to get the bounce bomb? That way newbs may never even find out about it.

I don't like the changes. That said, I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to lay the situation out so I can figure out why the hell staff gave in and changed something that wasn't even causing a problem among basers. Hell, if they were going to change it the least they could do was not make it a gimmick ship. It's practically unusable for the average pubber now, and maybe I'm in the minority but I dislike having to run a gauntlet of spawning WB's every time I try to get to base. They're free to sit there and camp all day. No team coordination necessary, just point and shoot. "Fair and balanced" play at its finest.. mm hmm. I'm still baffled as to how they figure pub freq Weasels were more detrimental to basing than two dicks on a priv freq unloading blue bombs into the FR and knocking the shit out of people. If people got fed up with an LT, they hunted it, so why not let the Weasel just get hunted and leave the settings alone? Hunting Weasels was just as much "a part of the game" as hunting LT's. Now you might as well be hunting a crippled man in a wheelchair. The ship is useless. My suggestion is bring back the big Weasel or just remove the ship entirely, because it's wasting space in this form.

Get rid of pub settings- leave levs in. To calm dickhead solo-lt's/javs, take out private channels and kick anyone who gets too many TKs/5 minutes. I'm not sure how we would insulate sharks from this rule but honestly some sharks really are dumb about mine placement too.

To keep the pubs "useful" registered squad leaders/assistants could perhaps still be allowed to create private teams for practice and recruiting.

PS-I've always found a WB was best for LT hunting. Shift in and snap the shot. Experience LTs drivers check their x-radar alot and a single red hit means the weasel has to either run away or uncloak into a real dogfight.

L3 bombs have no place in TW basing. None. The FR is too small and cramped.

I have no problem with private frequencies, as long as the fat blue ship is not on any of them. In fact, once in a while I find it fun to gather two or three friends on a priv freq and conquer the FR.

And the WB may be the most effective LT-hunting ship for a lot of players, but I've downed many with a Weasel. Almost all LT drivers will toggle their X-Radar on and off, and I've seen enough of them in action to know when most of them will commence this toggling. This is when, with the old settings, I would launch a sneak attack that the Terrier could only blame himself for not avoiding. Now if I want to hunt LT's I have to dogfight from the get-go.

As I said, the legitimate Weasel players are being punished because a lot of people, in ALL ships, don't understand that there's a base on the north side of the map, and that the main objective is to conquer and keep this base. Duelers have other arenas that specifically cater to them, so I don't understand why they loiter in the pubs. Basing has always been the heart of TW, but from the looks of things staff is trying to push it to the back burner so spawners can have their field day in the pubs, and as a result a lot of players are sorely disappointed and have been left scratching their heads trying to figure out what went wrong here.

I'm going to bed, this thread is making me hallucinate. I'm seeing Weasels everywhere I look.

[Kolar]

Basing has always been the heart of TW, but from the looks of things staff is trying to push it to the back burner so spawners can have their field day in the pubs, and as a result a lot of players are sorely disappointed and have been left scratching their heads trying to figure out what went wrong here.

I'm going to bed, this thread is making me hallucinate. I'm seeing Weasels everywhere I look.

Spawning is not important and does not effect basing in the public arenas. It will always be in this zone until staff changes out to safe zone spawning. The weasel would not be fast enough to get a LT and it would be seen. The only way you could have is if you got one that came right at you without X-Radar on. Not one point you've made makes any sense at all.

[Sarien]

But, why don't we just make something of use out of it. Like, remove the cloaking options, give it a lvl 2 bullet (yellow - 2 hit killers) and make it faster, not some godly speed, but enough so it can get out of its own way.

It's not a lanc, and shouldn't be made into a poor man's one.

1:how did Weasels keep the levi terrier population down or in check?
2:What do Team killing javs have to do with the Weasels? if there is no connection why mention it here?

1: By both hunting and aggravating greening leviathans to annoy them out of that ship, and also when attached, using small size and through the base shortcuts to keep pressure on an LT where only the terrier can see you, and depending on the X pilot, having a good chance at killing it as well. LT's being creatures that annoy instead of fighting, might be moving lots, but just moving between shot locations is all.
2: He mentioned it quite obviously that if staff was going to work on problems in public arenas there are vastly larger problems than this that needs attention.

pub is around for reasons other than basing. i could be wrong, cuz i don't intend to speak for the designers, but if you want strictly leet basing, there's already an arena for that. there's also an arena for wb's who are hardcore snipers. pub is like...a recreational league. people who aren't super serious and just want to have fun improving their wb elim skills without having to wait for an elim to start shouldn't have to worry about the bottom feeder x's who just trying and piss people off.

Warbirds flying around spawn and just taking potshots shouldn't have to worry about "bottom feeder X's" who are just trying to piss people off? But they should have to worry about LT's that exist only to piss people off, and the basers should have to worry about these same warbirds who are taking potshots at anything (including sharks heading for the base) so they can get a kill in their score, right? Warbirds flying around the spawn shouldn't get some sort of special exemption from the annoying things in life.

Next.. pubs aren't just for basing. Pubs should reflect all of the trench wars leagues thrown into a public arena, so that players in the publics can develop these playing styles, find what they like, head to the specialized arenas and leagues from there. But they aren't. What league is the leviathan allowed in, again?

This is not an overpowered versus underpowered argument. That argument ceases to be a functional one the moment you look at the facts. The old weasel was deemed underpowered, so they gave it a power boost. Now they say it's overpowered. Rather than head back in the old direction to find a happy medium, they went in a new direction entirely. That smacks to me of someone with the inherent problem of believing "cloaking is lame".

I think they beefed up the ship, and that made a lot more people start playing it, and someone somewhere decided that having a powerful weasel was fine. Having a popular weasel, was not.

The fact that the recent loudest anti weasel voice (Tone) happens to LT?
Not a shock in the slightest. Irony though, don't you love it?

By the way: If you want to get technical? The reason you've fucked it in such a hard way, is that by taking energy to cloak and stealth, when the ship fires and tries to get away to regen (because firing leaves it in such a perilously weak energy position) it's easily followed by watching radar, and tossing a bomb in that general direction, firing there, or if it tries to use both, it's going to run out of energy and go completely vis, with zero energy and fast. That's one example among dozens really.

EDIT: Oh, and Kolar. I routinely killed LT's with X. Not even the latest X. The older versions too. It is not as difficult as you would imagine, and have done it while they had X-radar on, and knew for a fact I was after them.

[Kolar]

If all that a Weasel can do is annoy levi terriers then I don't see the difference in going back or even reverting to bigger size + settings. I still can't see this ship being an effective anti-LT hunter. Being perminentally cloak isn't needed to do this.


Players may do what they like in the public arenas, Staff and the player base will continue to develop the core of this game which is basing within the public arenas. Pulling the the levi terrier out of all the arenas would seriously damage the zone because of its popularity (and no that isn't the same for the weasel, I haven't seen people giving up on TW because of this). Players can figure out if they like to sit around and base, duel, pub or just do sub arenas. The basing comunity as well as the dueling comunity as far as I know hasn't been suffering from player drops.

I thought the new settings would make you guys happy even though the method of reducing its power would be by making you guys think more and actually do some work to get a kill. By droping stealth after getting a kill it is easy to dodge and escape through one of the base holes or after burn away. Yes it isn't as easy as recloaking, dodge.. kill but it still is playable and still allows you guys to annoy the fuck out of the publics.



Edit: Maybe revert the size, reduce the speed but not the rotation, drain it a little slower for both cloak and stealth but allow regen for one of the two. Lets drop the whole arugment about what the zone is, what does what, who pubs ect ect.. Basing is the primary focus of publics, Weasels are not. If you want to play a weasel then you'll have to deal with the fact that they are not a basing ship and do interfer with basing, it's that simple. Gimping them or bring them into basing is the only way you'll get anything changed so if you don't wanna do something about it then don't expect it to be going anywhere fast. I know you guys are really taking this personal but Tone is not the only one left of center on this issue, not that it matters with the system of command in this zone but you're not the majority. You had your chance to give your suggestions, make proposals and lobby for change just as much as Tone and still do now. The worst thing you could be doing right now is aruging with me over what the fucking meaning of Trenchwars is at 5:30 in the morning.