Weasel Nerf'd

[PH]

I give up, staff is too far detached from the average player to know what works and what doesn't. gg, enjoy your (non-) basing.

[Kolar]

I give up, staff is too far detached from the average player to know what works and what doesn't. gg, enjoy your (non-) basing.

I do not represent all of staff and I told you I'm telling you this not as a baser, a staff or anything but a TW player. Upper Staff owns the zone and they'll change it acording to what they believe will make basing better as it is the goal of pubbing, not what a majority would or as you say 'he who bitches too much' wants.

[Theif of Time]

In fact, if a 3:1 rec in wb was as easy as you claim, it would probably be the average.

Which is statistically impossible: to get a kill, someone has to die.

The only reason why people have started to use javs more recently is to hunt down weasels.

the hell they have! people use it for the same reason they have since i started, and as far a i know since it had bouncy bombs.
Bombs=bigger blast than bullets=better chance of kills
Bounce=get bombs into unexpected places/show off 1337 51<1LL5
thats why people use jav. any good jav can hold a base from weasel (curse you p0llux, curse you!) by merely bombing the walls or entrances a weasel tries to get in. You don't even need 100% accuracy so any half baked jav could do it with a little warning (and seeing as they'll either see a weasel on radar or on screen, or someone on their team will, you have to be pretty damn fast to get in if they haven't got any distraction).

If a weasel is spawning or not inside the base then they do not matter. What would killing or harassing them do? certainly not want to go inside the base.

on the contrary, killing or harrassing them will encourage them to change ships (usually to terrier), possibly hunting down the weasel, possibyl in a terrier. The weasel can then retreat to mid base, where the ex-sniper will then either have to give up chasing the weasel (in which case the cycle can continue) or work with their team. At the least, they will be taking the weasels attention away from their teammates, while being a midterr.
Or, it could just plain make them give up and leave (which is sad, but like Forrest Gump said... shit happens) or give up and join their team.
Really, I don't see what there is to lose.

[Sarien]

Overall this doesn't address the weasel's overpowering effect in public rather reducing the ability to use that power. It's something at least, you've gotta admit something had to be changed so at least thank upper staff for still caring.

Overpowering effect in public? IF this were true why were there very few players of the older small weasel with the rocket? IF the recent upgrades made the ship too powerful why wouldn't you pick one of those upgrades and scale it back?

The problem when it comes to publics was not the spawn but how it could take down terriers easily and effectively make publics unstable.

Unstable? More like made new defs for the weasel. I can't tell you the number of times that I switched to ship 6 after the upgrade to defend the base from enemy X. And again, if that wasn't the goal intended, you could have always scaled things backward in the direction of the previous "too weak" weasel. But that wasn't what was done. A basic tenet and design of the ship was messed with.

Maybe.. logically... not having Warbirds killed every 5 seconds without some kind of personal defense.. at least not as much (actually caring about basing) would help them track and hunt down LTs.

So it was warbirds now? I thought it was terriers. So instead of thinking "hey the warbird doesn't have any kind of personal defense, maybe we should do something since all the other ships have something no matter how small"... like I dunno, the ability to buy X-radar that gives a drain (so that they can't turn it on and shoot, but could turn it on and leave and not deal with an X)

I thought the new settings would make you guys happy even though the method of reducing its power would be by making you guys think more and actually do some work to get a kill.

Which are you, a person that changed the settings or worked on the change, or just a player?


Whatever you thought, you were wrong. You are a self admitted player that doesn't like the ability to cloak, that sees that ability as overpowering and destabilizing, and you seem to not have very much experience with the ship.

This is what the change has done:
Made radar a constant check item and lob a bomb towards any dot you don't see the ship for.
Not changed the ability for the terrier to see said ship, in any way.
Gave the warbird a form of "personal defense" in the form of messing with the other ship than the ship that needed the defense in the first place.
Taken a fragile ship, and made it so that rather than by guile and sneakyness it's instead required to be lucky.
Made a leap of logic that has YET to be explained in any sort of goddamned fashion. Why not go back to the too-weak weasel, or even just scale the changes in that direction? Why? If every other word is ignored, I would like an answer to that question. Why?

[SpiderMage]

Why Sar?

Easy, they don't care. And please don't say that you do care, because if you DID, you would have run tests with the Weasels just like you ran tests for Pure Base and the Lanc. You tested the Lanc, tweaked it, retested and found something that works(the current settings), however there was no testing, no real tweaking and certainly no real imput from real Weasel players, horrible or 'elite'. Hell, 'll even go as far back as bringing up that here, on this very site/forum, a vote was issued to remove Levis from the now Pure Pubs(or so I was told).

As people have said before, the Weasel's main goal was taken and ripped apart and placed in a much higher level of difficulty. Hell, with the way it is now, anyone who calls a Weasel a 'newbie' is out and out stupid. You guys on staff seriously fucked with the purpose of the Weasel. Sure, it can cloak, big fucking whoop, but think about this, what good is an assassin if it's naked to the eye, but not the area's defenses? Apparently you forgot the checks and balances system of this game and what things were made for. Warbirds, Spiders and Lancs weren't ever meant to successfully fight Weasels, EVER. That was just one of their weaknesses that they had to deal with. In base or in spawn area it doesn't matter, Warbirds are not meant to fight Weasels, that's the Terr, Jav, Shark and now currently Weasel's job. You took the game's weakest ship and made it even weaker. Yeah, you can still make kills, sure, but in this new Weasel you will easily be killed 3:1, because a Warbird in spawn can just make radar shots and out manuever you. And seriously, overpowered? If it was so overpowered as people claim, why weren't there more Weasels than Warbirds? Why didn't the number of Weasels per pub sky rocket? And just for the record, going from 2 Weasel to 6 is not sky rocketing.

No one thought this through, you can claim you did it for the 'better of basing' but that's bullshit, pure and utter bullshit. Weasel was never a detriment to basing in the first place and never had been in ANY incarnation. Weasels were used sparingly and for a point. Now they lost their point, they can't slip into flag room unnoticed anymore, because now every single ship can simply look at the bottom right hand corner of their screen and go 'oh look, here comes a Weasel, time for an easy kill'. So in giving everyone defense, you actually have upset the balance of not only the ship but the game as well in a few aspects.

And again for the record, I was playing tonight for 3 hours, 80% of the time the flagroom was made up of this: One Terr, six(that's 6) Javs, and one(that's 1) Spider. Yeah... pure basing at it's best.

Btw, easily half the Javs TKed each other at least 3 times every few minutes, especially when a Weasel made an attempt to get in. The other day I was playing Terr and Theif was a Weasel, and he never got more than a few tiles into flagroom before he was raped by Spiders, Warbirds, Javs and the other Terrs.

So much for assassins, and here I thought people thought ninjas were cool.

[Theif of Time]

And again for the record, I was playing tonight for 3 hours, 80% of the time the flagroom was made up of this: One Terr, six(that's 6) Javs, and one(that's 1) Spider. Yeah... pure basing at it's best.

Its funny cos its true.

With a rocket I could get in. But I really can't be bothered to buy one everytime I die, especially with the new vulnerability to wb's.

[Kolar]

Which is statistically impossible: to get a kill, someone has to die.

the hell they have! people use it for the same reason they have since i started, and as far a i know since it had bouncy bombs.
Bombs=bigger blast than bullets=better chance of kills
Bounce=get bombs into unexpected places/show off 1337 51<1LL5
thats why people use jav. any good jav can hold a base from weasel (curse you p0llux, curse you!) by merely bombing the walls or entrances a weasel tries to get in. You don't even need 100% accuracy so any half baked jav could do it with a little warning (and seeing as they'll either see a weasel on radar or on screen, or someone on their team will, you have to be pretty damn fast to get in if they haven't got any distraction).

The recent surge of javs can be traced to this issue since it does have X-Radar.

on the contrary, killing or harrassing them will encourage them to change ships (usually to terrier), possibly hunting down the weasel, possibyl in a terrier. The weasel can then retreat to mid base, where the ex-sniper will then either have to give up chasing the weasel (in which case the cycle can continue) or work with their team.

They're still not intrested in basing only hunting by going into the base. This still has nothing to do with getting people to base, we can't make them or encourage them or force them using this strategy and i'm sorry to say this but that senerio is also unlikely to ever happen. If they're spawn hunting they matter little to publics, as would the weasel hunting spawners.

Overpowering effect in public? IF this were true why were there very few players of the older small weasel with the rocket? IF the recent upgrades made the ship too powerful why wouldn't you pick one of those upgrades and scale it back?

The small number of players using this ship does not discount the fact that its effect was overpowering in all public arenas. The method of reducing that could be done 2 ways yet you probably would bitch and whine against both. Reducing speed, weapons, rotation ect.. or reducing the cloaking ability and stealth.

So it was warbirds now? I thought it was terriers. So instead of thinking "hey the warbird doesn't have any kind of personal defense, maybe we should do something since all the other ships have something no matter how small"... like I dunno, the ability to buy X-radar that gives a drain (so that they can't turn it on and shoot, but could turn it on and leave and not deal with an X)

If more basic ships can not control the flag room then they will not be intrested in basing for publics, they will change over to spawning, wb hunting, LTing or whatever else. This change was meant to cover all publics because of this fact, and if you take 2 mins to think about it, it will make sense. People are going to WB, Spider, lanc or whatever first in basing because they're the main battle ships. If 1 ship makes that experince lesser or harder then we're not helping the publics.

Which are you, a person that changed the settings or worked on the change, or just a player?

I am a player of TW first and that's who I am when we're talking about making this zone better.

Whatever you thought, you were wrong. You are a self admitted player that doesn't like the ability to cloak, that sees that ability as overpowering and destabilizing, and you seem to not have very much experience with the ship.

Stop classifying me Sarien without even knowing who I am or what my opinions are. You can disagree with my opinion but you can never say I was 'wrong' to have that opinion or 'wrong' in that opinion. I have no problem with people wanting to cloak. If we can balance it and bring it into pub basing then i'll be happy to 'deal with it'. I saw the ship as being over powered, not the ability to cloak or stealth. Perminentlly cloaking and stealth is not something that is fair and balanced to the style of game play in public arenas. My experience if you would like to know spans from 1998-2005, so before you want to pull the 'stfu fucking newb' card why not take my experience , my knowledge and my advice for what it is, just another persons opinion and move on from there. We're still stuck on the who, how, why problems of the weasel topic and i'm getting tired of saying spawners, LT, new players and who ever else you hate had little to do with this change.

This is what the change has done:
Made radar a constant check item and lob a bomb towards any dot you don't see the ship for.

From what i've seen most weasel turn off stealth to regenerate energy. If before this change using stealth and cloak made it easy to track weasel then I see this as a fair and well intented advantage.

Not changed the ability for the terrier to see said ship, in any way.

And that's fine, terriers will always be a primary basing ship and removing this ability would not be something worth touching. I dont believe we need to start making settings to well defined and balanced ships here.

Gave the warbird a form of "personal defense" in the form of messing with the other ship than the ship that needed the defense in the first place.

Permanently cloaking and stealth is not fair to all public arenas and I've mentioned the intented goal for WBs and basic dueling ships, being the catalyse of pub basing. This adds some tactial and thought process to using the weasel.

Made a leap of logic that has YET to be explained in any sort of goddamned fashion. Why not go back to the too-weak weasel, or even just scale the changes in that direction? Why? If every other word is ignored, I would like an answer to that question.

Reducing the speed, weapons and rotation and we would still have more people pissed off here. I want all of you guys (and you know who i'm talking to) to come up with some ideas for changing it to make it balanced and fair in basing because talking about the who, what, where, when, why crap about the weasel is getting boring. Do you think staff just threw up polls, asked people shit or did anything that effected basers or duelers without the basers and duelers demanding shit or wanting anything? No.

Easy, they don't care. And please don't say that you do care, because if you DID, you would have run tests with the Weasels just like you ran tests for Pure Base and the Lanc.

Well that's fine. The TW settings are pratically public these days, go find it and test them out on your own server or ask TW Dev if you can test them. If you're gonna be pissed off and angry over this and you don't have an awesome number or people organized to lobby for change, do it your self.

no real imput from real Weasel players, horrible or 'elite'. Hell, 'll even go as far back as bringing up that here, on this very site/forum, a vote was issued to remove Levis from the now Pure Pubs(or so I was told).

I would say that before the lanc change we probably didn't have a lot of people who we can classify as 'lanc players'. Since the weasel went small you guys have come to use it, you've developed your own little social gathering for it much like we have the basing comunity on here. Now with a large population of people as basers, duelers ect.. we could put it to a vote or ask well versed people within that but all i'm seeing from your group is fragmentation not cooperation, no real discussion about making things better or a want to balance the publics. Bring some real solutions and wants as a group to upper staff.

As people have said before, the Weasel's main goal was taken and ripped apart and placed in a much higher level of difficulty.

Not Being perminentally cloaked and stealthed now will bring more skill and thought process to using the weasel. We have to do this as well as balance out the publics because this game is based on player ability and skill. Increasing the speed but lowering the weapon damage might make using this ship better in basing.

[Kolar]

Warbirds, Spiders and Lancs weren't ever meant to successfully fight Weasels, EVER. That was just one of their weaknesses that they had to deal with.

The settings are not writen in stone. That is not to say "well fuck Kolar give the jav Level 4 bombs then", i'm saying that if this change went with that intention (which I believe it did not) then it went too far. Scaling it back with weapons, energy, ect.. wouldn't help the overall problem in non pure public arenas but it might help for pure ones. Just dealing with it, when it is not fair, balanced and does not add to the real game play is not what Staff or we as players should be intrested in. Dealing with something when the whole idea of this game is to make and change settings according to the type of game play for your zone?

Yeah, you can still make kills, sure, but in this new Weasel you will easily be killed 3:1, because a Warbird in spawn can just make radar shots and out manuever you.

And again, if you're in spawn you're not basing and the settings will not be changed to help the weasel or any ship to do this. If it's in base, taking calculated offensive moves, using tactics and actually having to deal with defenses then that's fine. That's where we need to focus on. If you dont see a 3:1 record as normal or acceptable, please try using a WB, a spider or something else for a day.

And seriously, overpowered? If it was so overpowered as people claim, why weren't there more Weasels than Warbirds?

It has if you would get the hell out of pure pub and watch some random publics.

they lost their point, they can't slip into flag room unnoticed anymore, because now every single ship can simply look at the bottom right hand corner of their screen and go 'oh look, here comes a Weasel, time for an easy kill'.

You can but you have to be fast, stalking or wasting time/energy is not something that i'm going to say you have to deal with but something that is fair in my opinion. You wouldn't have anytime do to whatever because almost all terriers use x-radar, if not a jav would get you fast under any settings.

So in giving everyone defense, you actually have upset the balance of not only the ship but the game as well in a few aspects.

The weasel is ineffective at doing anything else but lame kill in lower, take out a terrier every now and then and generally piss the entire public off which turns into them spec hunting, switch to a cloaker and not basing. I believe the old settings upset the public balanace more so then current settings. If basing got along fine before then it will continue to do so, and by all indications and observation it is.


Well that was boring. If you're reading this that probably means you've skiped my entire post or you're not really intrested in reading. We're here to make gaming better and if you want to disagree with the way staff is changing the game then fine, do so until they ban you for spamming but questioning their intentions? It's bullshit and you guys know it. Go make a proposal to Staff, if you want you can email it to me and i'll even back it if I like it but this has gotten out of hand here. If you're gonna reply talk about making the ship better for public basing, do not respond to the fair and logical reasons that I've given why this change happened, it isn't doing anything here and we're only screwing this chance to actually talk about making the zone better.

[Theif of Time]

The recent surge of javs can be traced to this issue since it does have X-Radar.

I'd like to see proof. A correlation is not causation.

[deutschpunkrevolte]

u speak to much with no sense. we need a dictator. I am ur new dictator. I say everything sucks. we want our weasels back. I say luv me :wub:

[Kolar]

I'd like to see proof. A correlation is not causation.

The fact that the Javlin's use has gone out of control since the changes to the weasel, You don't see any connection there?

u speak to much with no sense. we need a dictator. I am ur new dictator. I say everything sucks. we want our weasels back. I say luv me :wub:

TW is a ditatorship. Under that there are players and those players can organize and form into a comunity and that's how things pretty much have gone for the divisions of game play. I'm not seeing you guys doing this, only bickering about why this happened. If you wanna take the lead on the discussion go for it, i'm sure someone will side track you on this thread though.


As a group now you can look like complete dicks by quoting each and every sentence I've posted, trash me then post some more 'we hate staff' ..'fix our ship' or you could take it the easy way out by giving some solutions to this already identified and un debatable problem. I'm open to real solutions as I would hope upper staff is, so get started because the onus is on you guys.

[Sarien]

The method of reducing that could be done 2 ways yet you probably would bitch and whine against both. Reducing speed, weapons, rotation ect.. or reducing the cloaking ability and stealth.

I was fine with the old weasel with the rocket. So were lots of other guys. Again, we could move back in that direction. Cloak and Stealth with no drain, lose the speed increase from the last improvement, keep the rotation and X Radar, but keep the rocket gone.

If 1 ship makes that experince lesser or harder then we're not helping the publics.

So, why is the lev still in the game again?

Stop classifying me Sarien without even knowing who I am or what my opinions are. You can disagree with my opinion but you can never say I was 'wrong' to have that opinion or 'wrong' in that opinion. I have no problem with people wanting to cloak. If we can balance it and bring it into pub basing then i'll be happy to 'deal with it'. I saw the ship as being over powered, not the ability to cloak or stealth. Perminentlly cloaking and stealth is not something that is fair and balanced to the style of game play in public arenas. My experience if you would like to know spans from 1998-2005, so before you want to pull the 'stfu fucking newb' card why not take my experience , my knowledge and my advice for what it is, just another persons opinion and move on from there. We're still stuck on the who, how, why problems of the weasel topic and i'm getting tired of saying spawners, LT, new players and who ever else you hate had little to do with this change.

I don't hate new players, and I never once said anything close to "stfu newb" as that isn't even close to my style. However, you can't have very much experience with this ship, seeing as how you talk about what it is and isn't good for, when there are people, and several people at that, that are able to do things with the ship that you say it isn't any good for. Your opinions can be wrong. If you have the opinion that 2+2=5? You're wrong. You're still allowed to have your opinion, sure. But that doesn't make you any more correct.


Here is why (If it was you with input) you shouldn't have been monkeying with ship six:

Permanently cloaking and stealth is not fair to all public arenas and I've mentioned the intented goal for WBs and basic dueling ships, being the catalyse of pub basing.

Not Being perminentally cloaked and stealthed now will bring more skill and thought process to using the weasel.

Increasing the speed but lowering the weapon damage might make using this ship better in basing.

The weasel is ineffective at doing anything else but lame kill in lower,

You wouldn't want a person that says all this same type of crap about a warbird, screwing with warbird settings, now would you?

Reducing the speed, weapons and rotation and we would still have more people pissed off here.

If nothing else bring back the old weasel with the rocket. I'd rather deal with a ship that was deemed "too weak" than one that completely screws up the role the ship filled to begin with.


Your arguments are specious.

[Kolar]

I was fine with the old weasel with the rocket. So were lots of other guys. Again, we could move back in that direction. Cloak and Stealth with no drain, lose the speed increase from the last improvement, keep the rotation and X Radar, but keep the rocket gone.

That still isn't helping non pure publics. I think we can drain energy for both cloak and stealth a little slower without tinkering with it further.

So, why is the lev still in the game again?

If we removed or tinkered with the levi we would lose a good deal of our population. On this matter I think the uppers know that that would happen and have attempted to make the effects of the levi lesser on pub basing.

However, you can't have very much experience with this ship, seeing as how you talk about what it is and isn't good for, when there are people, and several people at that, that are able to do things with the ship that you say it isn't any good for.

It isn't a LT hunter, it doesn't lower the population of javs (and it has imo given rise to the abnormal number of them in publics) and it has little to no effect on the global public system yet it has made basing unstable at times. I'm not saying that a weasel couldn't physically kill a levi terrier just that it wouldn't be good at doing it with any of the 3 modern settings.

Permanently cloaking and stealth is not fair to all public arenas and I've
mentioned the intented goal for WBs and basic dueling ships, being the catalyse of pub basing.
It's simple Serien we're not encourging basing by not allowing the primintive game play to occure.

Not Being perminentally cloaked and stealthed now will bring more skill and thought process to using the weasel.
TW is a game not based on some RPG skill crap or character atributes only your learned ability to play. We're not making it fair to everyone by not challenging EVERYONE to play


Increasing the speed but lowering the weapon damage might make using this ship better in basing.
Basing is the only thing that should be of concern for publics Serien, everything else is not important. If we can not conform this ship to basing or balance it within that then it will be gimped

Your opinions can be wrong. If you have the opinion that 2+2=5? You're wrong. You're still allowed to have your opinion, sure. But that doesn't make you any more correct.

If I had an opinion backed by factual information in that sense I can be wrong. My opinion however can not be wrong in the sense that it is what I believe and facts aside, my opinion stems from experinece and observation. I don't think we can boil this down into facts, you can randomly look at a public and see people not basing but that does not mean the weasel or any other ship had effected it. My opinion wouldn't acount for a whole lot with the number of other older players still on TW but you can take everything I have to say as someone who has been here for a long while.

You wouldn't want a person that says all this same type of crap about a warbird, screwing with warbird settings, now would you?

Traditional and long standing ships like the Warbird: It is very unlikely that upper staff will ever change these ship settings so I don't see the connection to it with the weasel. You have to keep in mind that the weasel has little to no function in basing and little influence expect for occasionally annoying the masses or easily killing a base terrier, which it can still do.

If nothing else bring back the old weasel with the rocket. I'd rather deal with a ship that was deemed "too weak" than one that completely screws up the role the ship filled to begin with.

Then do something about it.

Your arguments are specious.

We're analyzing the entire public system Serien and you have to look at what brings people into hold the flag and what the role of upper staff is in maintaining that system especially when they change it.


Pure Hated:I've pubbed since 98 and still continue to do so when i'm not basing and the rest of the 5+ hours a day I get on TW is watching Public play. We're all here to talk so lets talk about making the zone better because between addressing crappy logic, complete bullshit about how much you guys hate staff and the never ending sernerios where weasels can battle anything, i'm trying to help you guys get what you want and i'm sorry if that has to fit into something besides random spawning.

[PH]

Sarien, you're fighting a losing battle. Kolar insists he's in tune with what works and what doesn't work in pubs, yet the most I've ever seen him do in one is hop in a Spider for a few minutes and then move on to another arena. Just give up.

[Sarien]

If we removed or tinkered with the levi we would lose a good deal of our population. On this matter I think the uppers know that that would happen and have attempted to make the effects of the levi lesser on pub basing.

So basically what you're saying is that you're a bunch of hypocrites.

Then do something about it.

I think five times I've suggested this, and each and every time it's been deflected or ignored. What do you suppose I do?

complete bullshit about how much you guys hate staff

I didn't hate staff. Look at each and every single one of my posts and find any single instance where I have went on about how much I hated staff or how they were all wrong? I'll save you a bit of time. There isn't any. But with the runaround this is generating? The self professed hypocritical behavior? I'm beginning to really understand why it is so many people do hate the staff.

i'm trying to help you guys get what you want and i'm sorry if that has to fit into something besides random spawning.

No you're not. You're not either one of these, trying to help "us guys" or sorry at all. You're playing it all off until like Pure Hatred suggests people give up fighting the losing battle and just accept it. I could deal with that if were applied to the leviathan as well, but you won't. It's simple, we've stated what we want, the non-draining cloak and stealth, and we don't care if it costs the movement boost we gained, we don't care if it goes back to the old weasel with the rocket, that's what we want. Hell, some of us don't even care if it has to go all the way back to the big sized weasel. And the whole "I'm sorry it has to fit into something besides random spawning" is both insulting and manipulative.