**POSSIBLE** changes to TWLB. Feedback required.

[RoDNeY]

Major you should always have your F1 macro set to ?status so you can check shrap quick off detach, it will tell you if you have 3 or 5. At least thats what i do

Why only allow sharks 3 shrap though? I know more useful shots with the 5 shrap than i do the 3 shrap

I'm just going to copy and paste what i said in the last thread as this is the better place for it

Take away shark shrapnel and ill probably quit tbh, sharks live in 6 second windows. We spend most the game watching through the death screen. For those of us that know how to aim shrap angles and how to apply pressure/break cram with our shrapnel shots we love shrap. Is there a degree of luck with some shrap sometimes? Of course! We are also risking a lot putting down a mine with the chances it gets repped back into our team. Risk it to get the biscuit. I do however like the option of shrapnel states every 2nd and 3rd deaths like was mentioned above, if any change were to be made i wouldnt be too upset if that was the one implemented.

Repels im kind of in the same boat about, my play style i am a green scavenger. When im holding a cram and pushing out of cram you best believe i am charging at greens hoping for an extra rep to push the enemy even farther away. Watching two sharks repel against each other fighting for the same green during a cram hold is hilarious and happens multiple times in every game. Have you ever felt the rush of getting a 4th rep that single handedly saves your team? an even more rare 5th rep? Hell ive had 6 reps that saves the team when my shark partner gets hit by a DoA. I understand you guys are trying to normalize the green system but lets be honest thats what adds a level of surprise and uncertainty to this game. Basing is so damn dynamic because there are so many ways to approach every situation.

Watching a terr make narrowing escapes through the FR and port burst port burst in sequence as frustrating as it may be is fucking beautiful when executed in a way that it revives their team and keeps the battle going.

Greens are random yes, they trigger us and they excite us. They make basing dynamic and unlike the other leagues, do what you will with them just be responsible about it and dont make basing boring.

[Falconeer]

We would like to implement a few changes to the TWBD and ?go base arenas for testing for TWLB. These changes are not permanent and can and will be reverted if the feedback given for them is mostly negative. We hope that you come into these with an open mind and give your honest and thoughtful feedback after testing. These changes have not gone live yet, but I will update this thread when they do.

Here are the changes we will be adding to the arenas.
- No positive green spawns (meaning no full charge/shrapnel, no burst, no portal, no repel)
- Terriers periodically prized bursts every 60 seconds and portals every 120 seconds
- Sharks should rotate between zero shrapnel and three shrapnel on death. Start with zero shrapnel. Currently there is 53% chance to spawn with 3 shrapnel or greater, this would normalize it to be consistent with the statistical average without "nerfing" the ship too much.
- No shrapnel or rocket for javelin

You already have a base league that is monotonous where basically the only ships used are spider, terrier, and shark. With no ship restriction on shark and spider no one uses the other ships and it changes the dynamic of the game. To emphasize how limited base is... you could just give spider one repel and get rid of shark entirely too. However, people seem to love spider basing league... which is basically what it should be called. So no reason to change it, but changes I would be testing in base would be some way to make other ships more relevant and usable at least. There's no denying some ships are more op than others, but to me that doesn't make league fun, it just removes more factors that a player would have to worry about and it sets up the gameplay in a certain way.

Sharks do live in a 6 second window and removing shrap would be a big nerf on them, alternating how shrap happens maybe less so? Not sure why jav rocket is bad? People already have 40-2 scores in terrier, so not sure what you're trying to accomplish with a burst every 60 seconds? Making their kills 120-4? I don't get the logic really.

Sure, people make changes to settings and then that becomes the new status quo that feels right and no one wants that to change... but that's not an argument for a change being the right one?... i think you need a goal for changes, what are you trying to achieve? and what are the pros and cons.

[ogron]

It would be nice to get these changes put into TWBD so we can test them out for a week.

[Turban]

You already have a base league that is monotonous where basically the only ships used are spider, terrier, and shark. With no ship restriction on shark and spider no one uses the other ships and it changes the dynamic of the game. To emphasize how limited base is... you could just give spider one repel and get rid of shark entirely too. However, people seem to love spider basing league... which is basically what it should be called. So no reason to change it, but changes I would be testing in base would be some way to make other ships more relevant and usable at least. There's no denying some ships are more op than others, but to me that doesn't make league fun, it just removes more factors that a player would have to worry about and it sets up the gameplay in a certain way.

Sharks do live in a 6 second window and removing shrap would be a big nerf on them, alternating how shrap happens maybe less so? Not sure why jav rocket is bad? People already have 40-2 scores in terrier, so not sure what you're trying to accomplish with a burst every 60 seconds? Making their kills 120-4? I don't get the logic really.

Sure, people make changes to settings and then that becomes the new status quo that feels right and no one wants that to change... but that's not an argument for a change being the right one?... i think you need a goal for changes, what are you trying to achieve? and what are the pros and cons.

Similar question from you in a different thread, but might as well copy paste the answer here:

This is a good question that many might not have put much thought into, and hat's pretty much to be expected with most replies anyway as anything that is out of players' comfort zone tends to be met with much negativity.

Bursts have an 8.70% chance with current settings to be found inside a green. I took a look into the average amount of greens that is grabbed during the match across severalmatches in an 8vs8 setting and the numbers averaged out to roughly 30 total greens eaten per minute. There is generally speaking a very even split between both teams and no team has an enormous advantage no matter how the match played out. There was a variance between 27 and 34 greens eaten per minute, depending on the match, however it averaged out to the aforementioned number. We can simply run these numbers and simulate the average amount of bursts and portals terriers should be getting throughout the game.

Currently several bursts and portals go to waste as it is sub-optimal to use these items immediately upon receiving one in the off chance of your team getting lucky and replacing your used item within a matter of seconds. We feel these items are meant to be used as strategic tools to aid one in the battle.

On average terriers should be getting 1.3 bursts per minute and 0.52 portals per minute. However when considering the statement above about how many items generally speaking go to waste due to the nature of the game, it makes sense to slightly adjust these numbers.

[Mikki<]

Would love to test out these changes 8)

What about TWLJ/TWLD spawnkills? Could make some changes there as well but probably a subject to a different thread 8)

[Pressure]

Happy to test the changes in a practice arena, but would largely vote against them, particularly the terr changes.

The rules sound like the argument for change is that occasionally a game will be lost or someone will die due to "chance" rather than "skill" (eg, lucky burst prizing, lucky survivals from an FC, etc.). However, as Major Crisis alluded to, there is strategy involved when attempting to collect and/or use randomly prized bursts, portals, and FCs. Also, the idea of not having terrs spawn with one burst and one portal would, as Heaven said, cripple terrs and would make it a significantly less fun and powerful ship.

Why not make smaller changers before making such drastic changes. Consider removing nonessential green prizes (multi, xradar, etc.), and instead slightly decrease the probability of prizing bursts/ports, etc. (from 8.7% to 5% or something).

tl;dr - vote no for listed terr changes

edit: just read this post

I understand you guys are trying to normalize the green system but lets be honest thats what adds a level of surprise and uncertainty to this game. Basing is so damn dynamic because there are so many ways to approach every situation.

Watching a terr make narrowing escapes through the FR and port burst port burst in sequence as frustrating as it may be is fucking beautiful when executed in a way that it revives their team and keeps the battle going.

Greens are random yes, they trigger us and they excite us. They make basing dynamic and unlike the other leagues, do what you will with them just be responsible about it and dont make basing boring.

After reading this, I realize I'd probably lose interest in playing if these changes were implemented to terr.

[ogron]

Maybe I'm dumb and I'm missing something?

I don't see how it weakens terr, if you're receiving the same amount of ports and bursts on average.

I do see Thix's point about not getting a burst and port on death... cram is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyy too powerful, like it's the hardest part of the game, to break cram in TWLB. It's also the most boring aspect for spectators. It is frequently the bane of unbalanced games. FR is the best part.

Breaking cram without port/burst is crazy bad. You really need those tools just to have a small chance.

I would strongly consider leaving those features in. Frankly, if anything needs consideration for re-tooling, it's the cram. FR battles are the most interesting and fun aspect of basing, yet too frequently it comes down to cramming. I enjoy cram and cram breaking, but in moderation. It's boring as hell when it's like 7 minutes long.

Even with a port and burst, it's very hard to break against top tier shark pairs, and you're usually entering base having used one or both, while the cramming terr controlling the FR has his stuff saved up, and you're starting the FR battle from a losing position... it's just a very difficult proposition.

Cram is the biggest issue in the game (and flag juping the biggest bug), moreso than randomness.

I'm not against Turban's idea, and I think it deserves a fair shake. Change requires people being open to it. I'd like to test the settings for a week before shooting down his proposition, and think others should as well.

[Turban]

We can always consider the option to make cram entrance wider by removing one tile from each side. It would make it in theory much easier to break in, and thus resulting in more flag room skirmishes.

I do not know where you got the idea that Terriers would not spawn with bursts or portals. We are not touching this aspect of the game.

[Majorcrisis2]

We can always consider the option to make cram entrance wider by removing one tile from each side. It would make it in theory much easier to break in, and thus resulting in more flag room skirmishes.

I do not know where you got the idea that Terriers would not spawn with bursts or portals. We are not touching this aspect of the game.

Lets just spawn in ear....

no way u can even cram with a wider entrance. If teams are balanced you dont see those long crams anymore imo. Most time is often won by enemy having trouble getting up in midtube. Lets change that as well!

[Helps]

It would have been good to state what the goal of the changes are instead of just listing the changes and asking if people like them. If you have a goal, then people can help support that goal. Maybe we have ideas that you haven't thought about.

I like these changes if the goal is to make the game less random and more balanced. Getting the same number of ports and bursts for the terrs would make it less random as sometimes in terr you just don't get many portals while the other terr is porting around like they're the main character from "Jumper" who can teleport at will.

... cram is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyy too powerful, like it's the hardest part of the game, to break cram in TWLB. It's also the most boring aspect for spectators. It is frequently the bane of unbalanced games. FR is the best part.

I agree and I think many people agree too that FR Battles are the best part of basing and when the cram is done well by the FR team, then it is super boring for everyone. I've been terr and spider on teams that have held cram for long periods of time and it is really boring!
...

Frankly, if anything needs consideration for re-tooling, it's the cram. FR battles are the most interesting and fun aspect of basing, yet too frequently it comes down to cramming. I enjoy cram and cram breaking, but in moderation. It's boring as hell when it's like 7 minutes long.

Cram is the biggest issue in the game (and flag juping the biggest bug), moreso than randomness.

It'd be interesting to test a basing map with a larger entrance.

Greens are random yes, they trigger us and they excite us. They make basing dynamic and unlike the other leagues, do what you will with them just be responsible about it and dont make basing boring.

I totally disagree because when another spider doesn't die very easily I don't know if it's due to lag or if they picked up a FC green. This doesn't excite me, it just frustrates me. But if there were no FC greens then it's just skill baby.

You already have a base league that is monotonous where basically the only ships used are spider, terrier, and shark. With no ship restriction on shark and spider no one uses the other ships and it changes the dynamic of the game

I agree but this might be another topic. 5v5 spider basing is pretty boring too. A limit of 4 spiders would freshen things up and make strategies change.


...
I couldn't find the post but someone also mentioned that FR battles were the most fun and only cram battles or if one team gets stuck in the main tube and cannot get up to mid is also boring, and I agree.

We could remove the bottom half of the map and re-spawn due to death could be in one of the corners of mid.
...

AND we could also try a whole new map! Holy shit I said it! After your mind has been blown and you've recoop'd, come back and read further.

I made a new basing map that is slightly larger than the current flag room. Since it's 8v8 basing I call it, "The Octagon." It's in the shape of an octagon (duh) and the flag floats in the middle not against a wall. A green "safe zone" encircles the flag room and you re-spawn on one side but "safe" and you can fly around the entire map in the safe zone and enter where ever you want. There are only a few small "lines of sight" from the outer edge of the map into the very middle where the flag is located.

I think it could be fun to load it as a special arena and have someone host a few matches and see what people think. I need help finishing it though as in the map editor I had I didn't see a title for the "safe zones".

Thanks.

[ogron]

I mean I enjoy cram and cram breaking as is, I don't support changing the map.

To me, if you hold cram for x minutes, we should just accept that as a mini victory, and reset both teams to the ear like on "go!" and consider that a Touchdown of sorts... you held cram for 2/3/4/5 minutes, you've banked that time, now reset the FR game. I wouldn't change the cram game itself, it's pretty technical and requires a lot of skill and teamwork. But it's just crazy hard and a huge advantage for the team holding cram, at some point if you don't get the right luck, vs. two elite sharks it's just almost impossible to break.

It wouldn't happen very often, but sometimes the momentum is just too broken and game is just in the shitter, enemy terr has banked too many ports (he has one set, and one ready to deploy) and you start in a typically bad position when you break in... you need a reset.

Sports reset to a 50/50 situation all the time after you score a goal, I don't see why basing would be any different.

[ogron]

To me, a tek should have a sort of universal known minute value... i.e., a tek is worth x minutes on average. More importantly, it should have a max value... so if you get a tek, and control the FR and then cram, it's worth a maximum of x minutes because if you successfully hold long enough, it resets.

Would just produce better games, while maintaining the classic style of the game, and still rewarding teams for cramming and cram breaks, without being too onerous.

[Markmrw]

Major you should always have your F1 macro set to ?status so you can check shrap quick off detach, it will tell you if you have 3 or 5. At least thats what i do

For anyone that is interested you can also set your weapon to TEXT in your options



It will then show on the left of your screen all of the time much easier, no need to macro

[qan]

I mean I enjoy cram and cram breaking as is, I don't support changing the map.

To me, if you hold cram for x minutes, we should just accept that as a mini victory, and reset both teams to the ear like on "go!" and consider that a Touchdown of sorts... you held cram for 2/3/4/5 minutes, you've banked that time, now reset the FR game. I wouldn't change the cram game itself, it's pretty technical and requires a lot of skill and teamwork. But it's just crazy hard and a huge advantage for the team holding cram, at some point if you don't get the right luck, vs. two elite sharks it's just almost impossible to break.

It wouldn't happen very often, but sometimes the momentum is just too broken and game is just in the shitter, enemy terr has banked too many ports (he has one set, and one ready to deploy) and you start in a typically bad position when you break in... you need a reset.

Sports reset to a 50/50 situation all the time after you score a goal, I don't see why basing would be any different.

Outsider perspective: this idea is really exciting. Could modernize basing. There are far too many blowouts that are 10-15 minutes of perfect and near-perfect cram. The losers are frustrated, the winners might enjoy a win well-executed but overall come away not feeling challenged or thrilled, and any spectators there might be are half-asleep. Basing is a blast to watch when it's a vicious FR battle. Unbreakable cram feels like the end of a series of successfully and correctly executed maneuvers, which should be like a goal/touchdown, rather than almost the entirety of some games. If there's a way to maximize the moments that make people love basing, and minimize the ones that make it tedious, we should take a serious look. (Obviously this is more future-thinking, and not something to consider for TWL.)

Could also look at a points-based system, like many sports use (TeK giving X points in a certain situation, hold for Y minutes giving Z points, etc) rather than minutes. Special situations could be devised for various points issued. It has a huge opportunity for creative development without upsetting core gameplay, but rather actually focusing more closely on it.

[RoDNeY]

I mean I enjoy cram and cram breaking as is, I don't support changing the map.

To me, if you hold cram for x minutes, we should just accept that as a mini victory, and reset both teams to the ear like on "go!" and consider that a Touchdown of sorts... you held cram for 2/3/4/5 minutes, you've banked that time, now reset the FR game. I wouldn't change the cram game itself, it's pretty technical and requires a lot of skill and teamwork. But it's just crazy hard and a huge advantage for the team holding cram, at some point if you don't get the right luck, vs. two elite sharks it's just almost impossible to break.

It wouldn't happen very often, but sometimes the momentum is just too broken and game is just in the shitter, enemy terr has banked too many ports (he has one set, and one ready to deploy) and you start in a typically bad position when you break in... you need a reset.

Sports reset to a 50/50 situation all the time after you score a goal, I don't see why basing would be any different.

Honestly i kind of dig the idea of after a 5 minute flag hold the teams reset to ear, change the format from 15minute win to series of 5 minute wins. First team to 5 minutes 3 times wins? I realize this could extend games quite lengthy but i think a 2 - 2 series with the teams resetting to the ear to fight for the final 5 minute win would be pretty hyphy

Some form of this style basing i could completely get behind. I love holding a long ass cram because it shows good timing and teamwork but i also understand how it dulls the game. Reset after a 5 minute flag hold and see if you deserve the flagroom. Only issue i can see with this is the FR battle going for 5 minutes, say 2:30 for each side, team gets tek and only needs to hold another 2:30 min cram to win the series. With the time it takes to get back up tube and to gather yourself and attack the cram the other team will most likely take the series pretty easily.