Mafia: What a time to be alive!

[BIET]

Well, shit. Soilderz, you will be revenged (sorry fis)!

I think it is 'clear' who are the main suspects this day are. I have undercut, the_paul, and voth right at the top for their voting shenanigans, but I'd like to hear from some other angles.

[Exalt]

You have inside information on ixt allegedly, ok fine let?s roll with that. There is a reason for you to not switch your vote for a lynch, why didn?t the other 4 on Rodney switch to ixt, or vice versa?

Just to make things 100% crystal clear, I do not have inside information on ixt. I posted the summary of what was said in-game, nearly word for word on my part. I didn't see any reason to hide it, and he's not confirmed town to me in any way/shape/form. I just don't see him as scummier than other players in this game. I assume there's at least 3 scum, so he quite possibly could be one of them, but he's certainly not my focus right now if he is.

Soilderz seemed to agree with me, and he unfortunately is now dead. That leaves Voth and I as the only two players who seemed to defend ixt over Rodney. Hmm... I wonder where scum were going with that NK.... /sarcasm. If ixt is scum, he just fucked himself over by getting rid of one of his only defenders, and if the assumption was that it makes him look more townie in the process, he's about to be proven wrong on all counts. If he is town, then it's pretty damn obvious what scum just did there. I don't know what he is, but I'm not voting for him today.

Also, we now don't have a doctor to protect anyone who gives night action information, so if your justification for the No Lynch was so that town can make better choices by giving night actions, you've just seen empirical evidence as to why that justification was wrong.

[WillBy]

Struggeling here: is it "to revenge" or "to avenge"? Anyway, I hope ya'll get what I mean.
Don't interpret too much into the writeups, anyway.

At work so not going super into detail on the nights events, but I'd go with "avenge", fis. Use revenge as a noun, as in "a chance to seek revenge for the doctors death"

[fiS]

Now's the chance to revenge whoever was responsible for the Doctors death!

Struggeling here: is it "to revenge" or "to avenge"? Anyway, I hope ya'll get what I mean.
Don't interpret too much into the writeups, anyway.

[the_paul]

God damnit I was posting during phase change. I?ll have a legitimate post and a full response to Exalt?s post in a couple hours.

[the_paul]

I am about to head back into the office so I only skimmed your post, so I appreciate apologize in advance Exalt but I will read the whole thing and respond better when I get home.

From the parts I read about trying to find scum on day 1, it was like pulling the teeth to get anyone to even post. I am suspicious of both Rodney and ixt, but like I said in my original post, not enough to kill one of them. Maybe things will change after results from night phase. I also need to go back and find the other people who hinted that I was scum for no lynching, and then turned and did the same thing. Like I said, I remember you because you?ve been active (and the whole weird scenario with ixt).

The people who who voted for Rodney and ixt have marginal information, and that?s being generous. There are maybe subtle clues people could take as scummy, especially in ixt?s case, but there is nothing concrete yet. That being said, why did all of the other people who said they would definitely lynch not switch votes? You have inside information on ixt allegedly, ok fine let?s roll with that. There is a reason for you to not switch your vote for a lynch, why didn?t the other 4 on Rodney switch to ixt, or vice versa?

Unfortunately this part part of the game has turned into you and me dominating the conversation and blaming each other. Don?t take this the wrong way, but I?m not interested in hearing from you (and I?m sure you?re not interested in hearing from me) anymore. I understand what you?re saying about why you voted the way you did, whether I agree with it or not. I do not understand why the other 4 people on ixt and the 5 on Rodney voted the way they did, because you?re the only one who has to defend their position so far.

(You?re playing well and I?m enjoying the banter Exalt, my point was that you and I can go in circles all night without learning anything, it?s the lurkers I want to see defend what they did or didn?t do.)

[fiS]

After a long undicided day, a long night has passed, too.
What would happen? The only thing for sure was: something was in the air, something would happen.

As soon as the first sun lights started to hit our small village, there were screams.
One could feel the fear and panic that was now in the air, just as the sun began rising.

The people of the village gathered around a dead body covered in his own blood. Damn, so that's how it goes.
After taking a closer look, full of disgust, there was only one option who that dead dude was:
It was Soilderz, the Town's Doctor.

Now's the chance to revenge whoever was responsible for the Doctors death!
Rumours are that there'll be another chance to lynch someone in around ~48 hours.

Day 2 begins.

[Exalt]

The_paul, since you didn't want to vote ixt or Rodney, you must think both are town, correct? That is literally the only justification whatsoever as to why you voted neither one and threw your vote away on purpose, and so your 'suspicions' of ixt and you threatening to vote him on Day 2 looks like you are admitting you purposely screwed town over. There is no other viable excuse that doesn't directly correlate with you either being scum or just dumb, and we already know you aren't dumb. From what I see, you basically admit that you never intended to help town in any possible way on Day 1, and now you intend to waste town's time even more on Day 2 by voting ixt and hopefully lynching him then. You could have lynched him Day 1 as the deciding vote, which means town could look for someone else on Day 2 and move on, but you refused to do so, so I'm wondering what it is you think you've accomplished to help town? If you think ixt is scum, then why would you refuse to vote him Day 1? Why would you want to waste two days of town's time by only voting for him on Day 2? Regardless of what he flips in the future, your actions directly caused town's chances of winning to go down for no apparent reason, since I already proved your original justification of a No Lynch (basic math) to be false. It seems to me that you've done nothing but be detrimental on purpose, so I really want to know what your thought process is here.

Also, do you have any ideas of who else is scum? You didn't seem to have any interest in talking about anyone except Rodney/ixt at all Day 1, yet you also refused to vote either one, so what can we all take away from that in regards to your motives? Did you purposely use the No Lynch excuse as a reason for not scum hunt anyone at all? At least everyone who voted Rodney or ixt had a reason to focus on them, since they were invested in those wagons through their vote, yet you don't have that excuse. Why didn't you try to find other scum players, since you clearly didn't think ixt or Rodney were worth your vote? Which of the other 10 players in the game did you interrogate to learn more about them and their possible alignments for when you are finally ready to lynch someone on Day 2+? If ixt is the only player you are ready to lynch on Day 2, then you effectively admit you screwed town on purpose, so I sure hope you have a very good list of players you intend to lynch on Day 2 that isn't named Rodney/ixt.

[the_paul]

And in regards to your point about what I do tomorrow, that is untrue. You had the chance to back up your words, where you literally said even if a power role is exposed it?s worth it, and you didn?t. You played it safe, because if you changed and voted ixt, you would have taken the heat. I understand why you did it, but it is disingenuous to try and pin the heat on me ahead of time. I told you what I would do to pursue a no lynch scenario, and I did it. You told me what you would do to force a lynch, and you decided against it. Own that decision, along with the other ~9 who painted me into a corner and then did the same thing, and make some progress from it.

[the_paul]

I don?t think I need to explain my position on not lynching day 1 again. We fundamentally disagree, which is completely fine. In my experience, I am of the opinion that it does more harm than good in general. You are of the opposite opinion. I understand your position in that regard and I respect that.

What I do not understand is that you originally said that a day 1 lynch is almost always worth it, even if it means lynching a townie or forcing a legitimate role claim. This was your position until it came time for you to act on it. Outside of something illegal like screenshotting the role PM, putting myself in your shoes, I cannot imagine what would make me back off of such a stout stance and have you both be pro town. You drew a line in the sand early on and painted people on one side potential townies, and on the other side potential scum. When it came time for you to back those words up, you didn?t.

Naturally I?m only going off of what has been said publicly. I don?t play this game anymore, so I?m not privy to any conversations that happen outside of here. I?m not expecting you to divulge everything right away, you?re obviously not a dumb player so I wouldn?t expect you to do that. However, I think you?ll agree that I can?t be blamed for forming an opinion based on what I can see.

You willingly ignored your math to pursue a no lynch scenario, so I don?t think I really need to address that part. There is no way you can honestly believe we didn?t learn anything Day 1 though. When I get back to a computer (hard as hell to read through this stuff on mobile), it shouldn?t take a lot of time to be able to come up with a list of several people who did the complete opposite of what they said they would definitively do, and instead did what I was criticized for saying, and are skating by without any scrutiny. You are foremost on that list because you?ve been the most vocal, but there are several more that did the same thing, and anyone will be able to scroll back and make their own list of suspicious names.

I?m not saying you are absolutely anti town, my point is that you should not be blindly trusted just because you?ve posted a lot. I?m trying to force a dialogue, because while this thread has been dominated by about ~4 of us pointing fingers at each other, there?s been ~9 people sitting in the shadows doing nothing of substance. I learned a lot day 1, and I think forcing a dialogue to happen on day 2 will bring people out of the shadows where we can start making progress.

[Exalt]

I wasn't really measuring anything in terms of contribution, but sure, I probably have. I told everyone right off the top what I was going to do, and I did it. I didn't interfere with any other plan, I did what I was going to do. Exalt wrote a very long, well thought out piece that disagreed with me, which is fine. Nothing wrong with disagreeing. However, I did exactly what I said I was going to do, and Exalt did exactly what he criticized me for doing, and has received absolutely no push back for it. You don't find that suspicious in the least?


So here is the post Exalt wrote (I omitted a few parts because it's long), which led to several people being suspicious of me. Fine, no big deal to me. But the entire point of his post is that day 1 no lynches almost always favor the scum, regardless of the outcome. Having said that, and specifically saying it's even worth it to mis-lynch a townie day 1 (which I disagreed with in my post), why did he not switch his vote onto you to do what he said, since it's worth it. Your "role claim" is a pseudo power role from what I can tell from your hints, why didn't he do what he said and lynch you so that there can be information out there for day 2? What is with his blind allegiance to you? Your role claim sounds invented to me, and either way its only marginally useful to town if its true. Even if you are telling the truth, outside of an illegal screenshot of your role, how could you have possible convinced Exalt that you were coming to him not knowing his role, to convince him of your role, without having to prove anything to each other, and he would have bought it? You're telling me that scenario is more plausible, to the point of Exalt backtracking on what he spent the first 3 pages saying, than the thought that you 2 are on the same side and already know each other's roles? I am unconvinced of Exalt but quite suspicious, I'm strongly leaning towards the fact that you are not what you say you are, and I have actually presented a scenario that holds water on multiple levels, while you and Exalt have not. Maybe you're both scum, maybe Exalt is just gullible, I hope whatever happens tonight gives us information so that we can get rolling Day 2, because I will not be no lynching then.

Just some more evidence here that Exalt was willing to sacrifice an important town power role, just not a marginally useful role like ixt claimed. I am not responsible for the no lynch, I stayed out of it and did exactly like I said I would. The 10 of you (minus inactive people I guess) are responsible for the no lynch.



I shouldn't have to spell this out, but I will. Count the number of scum lists my name shows up on. There's 13 people in this game. Theres probably 3 mafia members with a neutral role out there, so 4ish people out there who would have a vested interest in removing a vocal townie and leaving a group of quiet lurkers to be defeated. Exalt told me earlier that my math was wrong, so I'll let you do the math for yourself in this case.

Exalt, if you believe that people need to make up for day 1 actions next day phase, then it seems to me that we should expect quite a lot out of you, maybe more so than anyone else.

I think your analysis is fair, but only based on the information you currently know. The shade you're throwing on me with this is technically justified based on that information, but I'm hoping it will eventually be proven to be hasty judgement based on false assumptions. I'm also under no obligation to vote someone I think is town just to force a lynch, all because you refused to do anything at all in regards to lynching scum. If you are on ixt or Rodney on Day 2, and it's not based on some town night action information, then you basically admit that you wanted town to waste two full days based on zero reasoning. You claimed your justification for a NL was basic math, but I think I've proven you wrong in that regard, so I still don't know what your justification actually was. Can you explain it now? Why did you want a No Lynch? What did town gain by you not contributing your vote? Why should any townie think your actions to be pro-town whatsoever based on the results you helped create?

[the_paul]

Also, I'm not saying anyone suspicious of me is scum. You should be suspicious, because that means you're thinking. But anyone who can put me fairly definitively on a scum list without being able to back it with anything resembling evidence is taking a fairly big reach imo

[the_paul]

and u have contributed more thoughts than he has? looks like ur trying to vs people here, EVEN THOUGH u did not vote for either rodney or myself, doessnt make yourself clear either. gonna wait to see what exalt's response is to this "interesting post" by paul

I wasn't really measuring anything in terms of contribution, but sure, I probably have. I told everyone right off the top what I was going to do, and I did it. I didn't interfere with any other plan, I did what I was going to do. Exalt wrote a very long, well thought out piece that disagreed with me, which is fine. Nothing wrong with disagreeing. However, I did exactly what I said I was going to do, and Exalt did exactly what he criticized me for doing, and has received absolutely no push back for it. You don't find that suspicious in the least?

I don't find your reasoning scummy, but I disagree with it in terms of the Day 1 No Lynch idea. It's fundamentally the wrong way to play imo for a variety of reasons.

Other reasons why No Lynching is always bad outside of a Mislynch & Lose scenario:

1. Lynching can kill scum. Scum kills do not kill scum. More lynching = more scum deaths. Not lynching = less scum deaths.

2. If you don't lynch someone Day 1, you cannot analyze the wagons Day 2. Wagons/Lynches and where people vote during a lynch give information necessary to scum hunting. No Lynches give zero information in that regard while giving scum a free kill at night. You essentially lose a townie for zero gain.

3. The only reason I can think of for anyone to want a Day 1 No Lynch, aside from their faulty math, is because they generally think something like "the Cop will eventually save us, and the game doesn't even start until like Day 3 when they find a guilty." Sure, that may happen, but you're placing blind trust on a random person who may or may not be good at being the Cop. Also, what if that Cop gets NK'd immediately Night 1 while you No Lynched and placed the entire game on the hopes that they save the town instead? Also, even with a mislynch, one less player for the Cop to potentially investigate means a higher % chance for them to correctly investigate scum.

6. Without a Day 1 lynch giving any information, and assuming a Town PR like the Cop doesn't claim, the Day 2 lynch after a Day 1 No Lynch is just as random and blind as a Day 1 lynch, with near zero differences except one less townie and fewer allowed mislynches before game over.

7. A Day 1 mislynch at the very least allows town to move past specific reads they had from the start of the game, because they are proven right or wrong based on what their Day 1 lynch flips. It allows the game to move past the initial phase of the game. A Day 1 No Lynch just makes town repeat the exact same arguments and exact same reads they had on Day 1 with little to no change, meaning the Day 2 lynch will likely be the same person who would've otherwise been lynched Day 1.

I'm sure I can think of more reasons, but that's my stance on the issue, and it's pretty strong. I'll always say a Day 1 No Lynch is a terrible move for town to make in nearly every situation. There is a time and a place for No Lynches, but it's almost never on Day 1.

So here is the post Exalt wrote (I omitted a few parts because it's long), which led to several people being suspicious of me. Fine, no big deal to me. But the entire point of his post is that day 1 no lynches almost always favor the scum, regardless of the outcome. Having said that, and specifically saying it's even worth it to mis-lynch a townie day 1 (which I disagreed with in my post), why did he not switch his vote onto you to do what he said, since it's worth it. Your "role claim" is a pseudo power role from what I can tell from your hints, why didn't he do what he said and lynch you so that there can be information out there for day 2? What is with his blind allegiance to you? Your role claim sounds invented to me, and either way its only marginally useful to town if its true. Even if you are telling the truth, outside of an illegal screenshot of your role, how could you have possible convinced Exalt that you were coming to him not knowing his role, to convince him of your role, without having to prove anything to each other, and he would have bought it? You're telling me that scenario is more plausible, to the point of Exalt backtracking on what he spent the first 3 pages saying, than the thought that you 2 are on the same side and already know each other's roles? I am unconvinced of Exalt but quite suspicious, I'm strongly leaning towards the fact that you are not what you say you are, and I have actually presented a scenario that holds water on multiple levels, while you and Exalt have not. Maybe you're both scum, maybe Exalt is just gullible, I hope whatever happens tonight gives us information so that we can get rolling Day 2, because I will not be no lynching then.

Day 1 lynch is statistically always the best bet. I've never seen a game where there was no day 1 lynch that was productive in any way. Lynches give information based on who voted and why, while scum NKs do not this early in the game barring some lucky watcher/tracker kind of thing. Assuming that doesn't happen, a No Lynch means you start day 2 with one less townie and no more information than you started with.. No Lynching on Day 1 is basically a free turn for scum. Also, if someone gets too high in votes and will be lynched, they can claim. If no counterclaim and they get lynched as an important town role, we go after the people who didn't unvote, since they're either obvious scum or braindead town.

Just some more evidence here that Exalt was willing to sacrifice an important town power role, just not a marginally useful role like ixt claimed. I am not responsible for the no lynch, I stayed out of it and did exactly like I said I would. The 10 of you (minus inactive people I guess) are responsible for the no lynch.

and what do u have to say in response tho those people who have u on their "potential" scum list? u do realize ur name is on a few, while i seem to miss exalt's name on any (of course it doesn't clear exalt's name) but of course at this phase he would seem more likely to have the town's best interested compared to yourself

I shouldn't have to spell this out, but I will. Count the number of scum lists my name shows up on. There's 13 people in this game. Theres probably 3 mafia members with a neutral role out there, so 4ish people out there who would have a vested interest in removing a vocal townie and leaving a group of quiet lurkers to be defeated. Exalt told me earlier that my math was wrong, so I'll let you do the math for yourself in this case.

[ixt]

and what do u have to say in response tho those people who have u on their "potential" scum list? u do realize ur name is on a few, while i seem to miss exalt's name on any (of course it doesn't clear exalt's name) but of course at this phase he would seem more likely to have the town's best interested compared to yourself

[ixt]

and u have contributed more thoughts than he has? looks like ur trying to vs people here, EVEN THOUGH u did not vote for either rodney or myself, doessnt make yourself clear either. gonna wait to see what exalt's response is to this "interesting post" by paul